Diskussion:Alex de Grassi

Correct capitalization

According to English name capitalization rule and to the Library of Congress, name should be : Alex De Grassi :

• LC Control Number: n 85199758
• HEADING: De Grassi, Alex
  

Used For/See From:

• Grassi, Alex de
• DeGrassi, Alex (nicht signierter Beitrag von Poulit (Diskussion | Beiträge) 9:13, 23. Jul. 2010 (CEST))

This change is not really backed by the above reason. His name writing by himself is Alex de Grassi as is written on all of his records. Just because the Library of Congress uses capital letters for every prefix of two or more part names, there is no evidence that this spelling is correct. I’d like to see some proof of the spelling provided here. Other than seeing that I am going to revert the move, the same applies to the English version of this article. --Goodgirl Verbessern statt löschen! 10:05, 23. Jul. 2010 (CEST)

Goodgirl's right - please check de Grassi's official homepage. I will revert your changes. --Andibrunt 10:47, 23. Jul. 2010 (CEST)

I thought Wikipedia applied international standards on the spelling of people's names, sorry for believing so. I am a professional librarian and hoped it would be the case here too.

Anyway, Alex De Grassi should at least be entered as his birth name, as the rule for names from english-speaking countries is the following :
The first prefix is always in upper case and all prefixes are included in the last name, regardless of the origin of their name and of the rules that would apply in their country of origin :

   * Da Costa, Morton (American)
   * De Finney, James (Canadian)
   * De la Mothe, John Robert (Canadian)
   * Mac Gilvary, Daniel (American)
   * Macleod, Norman (British)
   * O'Crohan, Tomás (Irish)
   * Von Sternberg , Josef  (American)

These rules are applied by all National Libraries of course, but also by all administrations and institutions from those countries. So for the administration, this person was without doubt born Alex De Grassi, even though he chose to write it "de Grassi" on three of his releases (out of 18, the others being entirely in lower or upper case).
Poulit 14:11, 23. Jul. 2010 (CEST)

Wikipedia should not apply standards to create appropriate names but rather use the correct name. I could not find the rules for proper naming in the English Wikipedia except for this page. I understand your point, that libraries use a capital letter for the prefix regardless of the proper naming, just because it is the rule. I also do understand, that there maybe is a ruling to do so in administrations. Maybe you can provide a link to a linguistic authority that states this rule. But as long as I do not see that rule, I do not agree that Wikipedia should rename people that (hopefully) know the correct spelling of their names und use it accordingly. I am the least not willing to move an article to its correct term. --Goodgirl Verbessern statt löschen! 15:45, 23. Jul. 2010 (CEST) BTW: I checked the recordings for the spelling before my first post on this page: Every single uses de Grassi in the booklet.

You misunderstood me. National Libraries are not changing names. His true birth name is Alex De Grassi, but for artistic purposes maybe he chose to write it as Alex de Grassi. Those rules are quite complicated, so I understand the wiki may not wish to apply them.
A good example is Zack de la Rocha : had he been considered as a US citizen, his name should have been Zack De la Rocha (alphabetized under D), but considering his father is of Mexican origin a different rule applies and his name is written Zack de la Rocha (under R). Had he been French it would have been Zack de La Rocha (under L).

This means Alex de Grassi must be under G, while De Grassi would have been under D.
I also must say that if the Library of Congress gives Alex De grassi and Alex DeGrassi, it means it has sources where it found it written as such. Here are the sources  :
Library of congress

• U.S. copyright file, Nov. 14, 2005 (DeGrassi, Alex, 1949- ; DeGrassi, Alex, 1952- ; DeGrassi, Alexander, 1952- )
• Contemporary musicians: v. 6 (De Grassi, Alex; b. Feb. 13, 1952, Yokosuka, Japan; guitarist)

So I think it should be specified somewhere in the article he is also known under these two spellings.
You will find a simplified rule here from the IFLA : http://www.libraries.psu.edu/tas/jca/ccda/docs/IFLA-NoP-USA.pdf
You have here the full rule from the French national library (in French) : http://guideducatalogueur.bnf.fr/ABN/GPC.nsf/35FC16C055B0CDEAC1257210002D1E06/%5C$FILE/EXTNoms%20PEP%20Anglais.htm?OpenElement --Poulit 17:03, 23. Jul. 2010 (CEST)

– The different versions of name spelling are acknowledged in the hidden section <code>{{Personendaten}}</code>, so there is no need to mention that aspect in the text.

– The document of the IFLA states explicitly that the rule is a rule for "ORDER OF ELEMENTS IN CATALOGUE HEADINGS", that means for the usage in libraries. It does actually not regulate the official spelling of names. On page 1 of the document there are examples of surnames "with prefix, usually of foreign origin". There is already one faulty asssumption in it, the name van Doren must be spelt with a lowercase van if it is Dutch, if the name was Belgian, it must be spelt with an uppercase Van. The document does not refer to the draft of an official authority of the government of the United States, that explicitely states, that all name prefixes of American citizens must be spelt with a capital letter. Still, every American citizen will write his name the way he has inherited it from his ancestors and every American authority will leave it that way, until we see that official US federal draft.

– The website of the French National Library uses Oscar de la Renta as an example. According to its rules, it has to be filed under Oscar De la Renta. But the name is Spanish and the rules of the castillian lanuage apply. The prefix has to be lowercase. (Diccionario Planeta de la lengua Española usual, F. Marsá. Editorial Planeta, Barcelona, 1982.)

– I do perfectly understand, that for the reason of searchability of authors and titles there must be a common standard of sort sequence within library catalogues and I am happy that there is such an agreement. Nonetheless this convention does not apply to spelling of names in official documents nor does it apply to the spelling of names in Wikipedia. I also do understand that other authorities may have different agreements of how to spell a name to make it usable and sortable in their particular data dictionary.

– To solve the issue to complete satisfaction, a birth certificate and all subsequent official name change document should have to be investigated. Until then, the most likely variant of the name, used by the person itself should be used, unless there is a US federal law about the spelling of prefixes of American citizens’ names. Everything else appears to be original research to me. Thank you for being factual in this discussion. --Goodgirl Verbessern statt löschen! 19:46, 23. Jul. 2010 (CEST)

You misunderstood the IFLA document, there is no faulty assumptions in it. Foreign rules are not applied in the US, so a Van or Von will always be in upper case and part of the last name for a US citizen. I know perfectly the rules for the dutch/belgian van which is much more complicated than what you say, as for example before 1830 Van was in upper case also for the Dutch. And the reason Oscar De la Renta is filed under D (instead of initially Oscar de la Renta under R) is because he became a US citizen (it says : Dominicain, naturalisé américain) and the spanish rule no longer applies.

"ORDER OF ELEMENTS IN CATALOGUE HEADINGS" can apply to any database, library or not. Librarians did not "invent" rules for names just for fun, they just wrote what the name usage was for each country and applied it. And you can see among their references for example the Social Security Death Index or the US copyright. But here is not the place to continue a discussion on libraries.

I just added the Alternativnamen in the Personendaten as they didn't figure there. Finally I don't understand why the article gives the links to the authorities of the DNB and the Library of Congress (which both show Alex De Grassi) if noone gives credit to it. Just for fun ?---Poulit 08:41, 24. Jul. 2010 (CEST)

Thanks for adding the alternative spellings, I put them in the right form on a single line. Regarding the spelling itself: All your arguments actually refer to the order of elements as applicable for libraries. I have not seen any document that is a US federal law about the spelling of names. It is only your claim: "Foreign rules are not applied in the US", not more than that. Wikipedia is not a library, Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. If you feel there is something basically wrong with the naming conventions I suggest you go to this page and set up a new case there. I will gladly follow the discussion and learn about applicable rules. I think we should close the argument here because it has become basic and does not only refer to Alex _e Grassi. --Goodgirl Verbessern statt löschen! 11:02, 24. Jul. 2010 (CEST)

OK, thanks fo the discussion.--Poulit 11:43, 24. Jul. 2010 (CEST)