Diskussion:Giorgio da Sebenico
Please, improve the language
BearbeitenThank you and best regards!--71.163.236.199 00:02, 28. Dez. 2011 (CET)
Der biografische Teil, die Orsini-Namendiskussion weicht erheblich von dem umfangreichen italienischen Artikel ab und sollte daher überprüft und überarbietet werden. --Gregor Bert 19:39, 31. Dez. 2011 (CET)
- Italienisch kann ich nicht, aber auch der englische Artikel widerspricht in dieser Frage massiv der Version in Simple English. Leider ist dessen Autor, der auch beim deutschen Artikel erheblich beigetragen hat, einigen krassen Missverständnissen seiner ohnehin veralteten Quellen aufgesessen. Daher muss der Artikel weiterhin dringend gründlich anhand aktueller Forschungsliteratur überarbeitet werden. --FordPrefect42 (Diskussion) 19:03, 13. Aug. 2017 (CEST)
Family name
BearbeitenI've already provided full insight into his family name, as it can be seen in the Simple English article version:
"Juraj Dalmatinac"
BearbeitenIn Croatia, Giorgio Orsini is celebrated as a Croatian sculptor and architect, known under the Croatian name Juraj Dalmatinac. This name is translation of his art name "Georgius Dalmaticus". The translation is coming from the second half of 19th century[1][2]. Another version of the Orsini's croatised name is Juraj Matejević. This name comes as translation of the "Georgvs Mathei" (Georg, Mathew's son) text engraved in the marble of St. Jacob cathedral church in Sebenico[3]. Croatian author Fisković claims that "Orsini", as his family name, was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father. [4] His claim is not supported by any documents or records dated back to the times Orsini lived and worked. Fisković's claim is defeated by the home sale contract where Giorgio Orsini was named as the home buyer[5][6]. Two Italian authors recorded the use of Giorgio's family name by his son Mateo and grandson Giovanni[7] and refuted Fiskovic[8] Croats erected a monument celebrating Orsini in the front of St. Jacob cathedral church in Šibenik, Croatia. This monument, an over-sized standing statue of Orsini, is a work of Yugoslav sculptor Ivan Meštrović. Two elementary schools in Croatia bear that name: one in Pag,[9] and one in Šibenik.[10]
References
Bearbeiten- ↑ Paolo Rumiz: Traù, fuga di mezzanotte In: La Repubblica, 14. August 2004. Abgerufen am 25. April 2011
- ↑ Gian Antonio Stella: Gli italiani d'Istria litigano con il Vaticano In: Corriere della Sera, 3. November 2000. Abgerufen am 25. April 2011
- ↑ Slovnik umjetnikah jugoslavenskih od Ivana Kukuljevića Sakcinskog, Tiskom Narodne tiskarne Dra Ludevita Gaja, Zagreb 1858. Page 249
- ↑ Juraj Dalmatinac by C. Fisković and N. Gattin; Zora Publishing House, Zagreb 1983 page 73
- ↑ Moqué, 1914
- ↑ Jackson, 1917
- ↑ Per trecentosettantasette anni: la gloria di Venezia nelle testimonianze artistiche della Dalmazia by Giuseppe Maria Pilo, Edizioni della Laguna, 2000, page 37
Giorgio di Matteo Dalmata - com'egli si firma - è probabilmente nativo di Zara e certamente veneziano di formazione ancorché molto noto come Giorgio da Sebenico per avervi a lungo operato e avervi creato con la cattedrale di San Giacomo il suo capolavoro, o come Giorgio Orsini, cognome usato dal figlio Paolo dal 1512, ufficialmente dal 1516, e confermato al nipote Giacomo nel 1540 dal governatore veneziano dela Dalmazia Valerio Orsini quando lo dichiara, anche con i progenitori "ex nostra stirpe Ursina".
- ↑ Atti e memorie della Società dalmata di storia patria, Volume 6 Società dalmata di storia patria, La Società, 1969 page 164
Ci siamo dilungati un po' a parlare del figlio Paolo per dimostrare che con era poi quella figura "insignificante" come vorrebbe il Fiskovic.
- ↑ Osnovna škola Jurja Dalmatinca Pag
- ↑ Osnovna škola Jurja Dalmatinca Šibenik
Definitely, there is no place for Juraj Dalmatinac. The "Juraj Dalmatinac" name is an invented name coming from the second half or 19th century, i.e. four hundred years after Giorgio's death.--71.163.236.199 14:28, 2. Jan. 2012 (CET)
- Da er in der Literatur gelegentlich unter dem Namen Juraj Dalmatinac auftaucht, sollte man in einem Lexikon herausfinden können, wer damit gemeint ist, daher ist eine Weiterleitung sinnvoll. Auf einen Namen mehr ober weniger (die Namenliste des Dalmatiners ist bisher noch nicht vollständig!) kommts bei diesem namenreichen Künstler wirklich nicht an.--Gregor Bert 22:24, 5. Jan. 2012 (CET)
- I have no idea what you are pointing at? There are historic facts about this artist on one side and on the other one - politics and propaganda. The first one belongs to encyclopaedia.--71.178.106.120 02:56, 25. Feb. 2012 (CET)
Unfortunately, there is a lot of crap in the Simple English version of the article, probably because of your poor understanding of the sources, which are also at least partly out of date. Jackson (1917) does not support that Giorgio bought a house in Venice in 1455 which he decorated with a heraldic bear - it is rather the very same house in Šibenik, that Jackson (1887) and Hornor Moqué (1914) refer to. You cite Moqué (1914) and Jackson (1917) to prove that the home sale contract was signed under the name of "Giorgio Orsini", but Jackson (1917) does not mention that contract at all, and Moqué (1914) does not quote the original contract, but rather the older publication Jackson (1887), therefore it is unclear under which name the contract was actually signed. From all sources I have read so far, I can see no base to refuse Fisković's (1963) reasoning about Giorgio's name.
It is true that "Juraj Dalmatinac" is a posthumous name, but it is the predominant from in Croatian literature, and it is the literal translation of the Latin "Georgius [Matthei] Dalmaticus", which he actually used. Therefore I absolutely support that there should be a redirect to his article from this name, and that it should be mentioned in the article itself as a variant name. --FordPrefect42 (Diskussion) 18:57, 13. Aug. 2017 (CEST)