Diskussion:Minas-Geraes-Klasse

Regarding Minas-Gerais-Klasse

Den folgenden Text habe ich von meiner Diskussion hierhin kopiert:

The name at the time was Minas Geraes; if you look at contemporary New York Times articles and the Brazilian Navy's site, they all refer to the ship as "Minas Geraes". According to a Brazilian en wiki editor, "Geraes was the correct spelling at the time the ship was commissioned, [...] [but] later changes to Portuguese orthography deprecated it in favor of Gerais, which is the current form." Apologies for the English. Cheers, Ed17 08:40, 6. Mai 2009 (CEST)

-- Marinebanker 11:11, 6. Mai 2009 (CEST)

For the convenience of all participants of the discussion, I shall post my answer in Englisch as well. I am also aware that "geraes" is an old writing in Portuguese. I am not sure whether it still was in use at the time when the battleship was put into service, for sure not after the 20ies of the last century.

Fact is that the battleship was not built nor christened in Brazil but in England. The yard (Elswick) used in contemporary writings "Geraes", as well as in correspondence. All contemporary sources from Jane's to its later editor Dr. Parkes in his "bible" on British battleship construction referred to the ship in this spelling. This was copied by foreign naval annuals like Flottes de Combat and Weyer. However, while I cannot rule out the possibility that the ship was put into service in Brazil under the old spelling, especially Robert Scheina (who also speaks Portuguese) disagrees and insists that because of being named after the inland provice, it was spelled "Gerais" from the first year of its service, 1910 (Conway II 404). Also, Jane's noticed its error and uniformly reverted in all its editions from the 30ies until the scrapping of the ship in the 50ies to "Gerais" - I have checked half a dozen editions over the time mentioned. All serious standard references on battleship history followed this pratice (Hough, Whitley, Greger, Breyer, to name just a few).

Newspapers are no sources which can be cited in such discussion. The website linked, also, is a private project (please read "quem somos") and is in no way connected to the Brazilian Navy or any official. The web article is, moreover, mainly based on the well-known monography of Topliss (WI XXV, 240) which follows the old spelling - obviously, because 90% of it deals with the early design history in England and related documents until 1908 where - as I pointed out - the old spelling was used. Topliss is to the best of my knowledge the only serious post-war source using the old spelling, presumably because of its main focus in the years before the completion of the ship.

According to Scheina and Jane's, it is obvious that the Brazilian Navy either from the beginning or at least shortly afterwards did use "Gerais", and so I strongly propose to name the article on the ship in accordance with all modern sources that way. It will be pointed out, however, in my forthcoming revisions of both articles of the Minas Gerais class battleships how the name developed, and a lemma "Minas Geraes" linked to "Minas Gerais" should be created to ease finding of the ship for the reader. --Graf Spee 14:49, 6. Mai 2009 (CEST)

Hmm. This is what I know from en:User:Fvasconcellos: "This ship is officially known in Brazil as the Minas Geraes, and I've never seen it spelled the modern way (Gerais) in any local sources." If it is officially known as Geraes, should it not be that way in these articles?

Also, Conway's 1906–1921 on p. 404 does not disagree with the name; it just says that "Minas Gerais [was] named after the inland province" right after talking about the 1910 mutiny. Ed17 19:53, 6. Mai 2009 (CEST)

As for Weyer mentioned above, the 1914, 1922 and 1941/2 edition also use Minas Gerais (contrary to what Graf Spee says about Weyer, but corroborating his point). As for en:User:Fvasconcellos's point of view, no offence, but I don't see any relevance in what a user says he has never seen. -- Marinebanker 19:59, 6. Mai 2009 (CEST)

1. Scheina in Conway (both II and III) supports the spelling "Gerais" from the outright, otherwise both editions would differ there. If you know Dr. Scheina, you will admit that he does not write even such details without careful thought.

2. Weyer 1914 p.22 and p.167 says "Geraes" (@Marinebanker - do you have an original or only a reprint, although that should be identical?), the same in 1912 (p.22), in 1916 (p.24), in 1918 (p.24), in 1922 (p.12) - all cited from original editions. Furthermore, 1934 (p.18), 1937 (p.18), 1939 (p.20), 1940 (p.20), 1941/42 (p.20), 1943/44 (p.20, 312, 313) and 1953 (p.10) are no different. From 1954/55 onwards, the ship is not listed any more. I did not check any futher years because it is perfectly clear that Weyer never changed to "Gerais". The same is valid for Flottes de Combat at least until 1940. I am able to read my sources, be sure ;-).

3. The change of Jane's in spelling during the 30ies is of importance, however, since this source has always been (and still is) far superior in research over all other naval yearbooks. While it is not free of errors, you can bet that its data are more reliable than those of any other yearbook except perhaps regarding the own navy of a special publication (f.e. the Marine Nationale in Flottes de Combat).

4. I am not aware of any true research publication on these ships by a native Brazilian author. I shall now try to directly ask Ministério da Defensa / Marinha do Brasil for clarification, since their webpage does not contain the relevant information, also - at least I did not find it so far in the very slow opening menues. --Graf Spee 20:45, 6. Mai 2009 (CEST)

ad 2., Weyer: Sorry. You are right. -- Marinebanker 21:27, 6. Mai 2009 (CEST)

Marinebanker: "no offence, but I don't see any relevance in what a user says he has never seen"—no offense taken, and I agree with you :) I've written to the Navy requesting clarification, and will post their reply as soon as I get it. If it is indeed Minas Geraes, then we'll have an unimpeacheable source; if it really turns out to be Minas Gerais, then I apologize, and I'll help move everything to its correct place. I've also asked about any "official" source for ship names, etc. From what I gather, it is called Repositório de Nomes dos Navios da Esquadra Brasileira, and I've already found a 1943 copy at a used bookstore—I'll get my hands on it if I have to! Best, Fvasconcellos 00:37, 7. Mai 2009 (CEST)

If you have started an official request, I shall withhold my letter. The answer, however, can be anticipated in one point - the ship was planned as "Minas Geraes" and decommissioned as "Minas Gerais". What we can learn is exactly when and why the change was ordered. Regarding the encyclopedia, "Minas Gerais" will be the lemma anyway. An encyclopedia is not a forum to show "I knew better" but a service to the reader. Since the vast majority of the literature refers to the ship under its final name as "Minas Gerais", the reader expects to find it there. Since it was at least planned (and maybe christened) under "Minas Geraes" and is named that way in contemporary sources, a lemma "Minas Geraes" has to be created, also, and linked. So you already can "move anything to its correct place". Please always keep in mind the service function of our work here. We do not educate people but help them to find information. Even if "Geraes" should be the more popular writing in Brazil, the German lemma has to be "Gerais" to reflect the expectations of our readers.

Dr. Mário Mendonca's "Répositoria" is indeed a publication of the Ministério, the 1943 edition should be the first one (second was, I think 1954, and third and last one 1959). I do not own a copy since the navies of Latin America are not my field of special interest although I work on the subject "dreadnoughts" in general. If you can get hand on a copy, please do so. --Graf Spee 07:06, 7. Mai 2009 (CEST)

Korrekter Name "Minas Geraes"

Zur Zeit der Namensvergabe war die gängige Schreibweise "Minas Geraes", später wurde die Schreibweise der Provinz "Minas Gerais" üblich. Nichtsdestotrotz lautete der Name des Schiffs stets "Minas Geraes", wie aus zeitgenössischen Quellen und Fotografien ersichtlich ist.

• 
  Minas Geraes beim Stapellauf (siehe Inschrift auf Bordwand)
• 
  Offizielle Einladung zum Stapellauf der Minas Geraes

Auch in den späteren Bildern aus den 1930er Jahren ist die Schreibweise "Minas Geraes" klar ersichtlich [1]. Auch die Bildbeschriftungen auf Fotos auf

Commons: Minas Geraes (ship, 1910) – Sammlung von Bildern, Videos und Audiodateien

zeigen die Schreibweise "Minas Geraes".

Ich verschiebe daher den Artikel auf den korrekten Namen Minas-Geraes-Klasse, auch wenn in diversen Publikationen der Name fälschlich mit "Minas Gerais" angegeben ist. Das ist auch konsistent mit der Schreibweise auf den anderssprachigen Wikipedien. --GDK Δ 11:27, 10. Dez. 2013 (CET)