Diskussion:Norrbagge

The article needs a lot of revision - Überarbeiten

First of all, please excuse that I write in English. My written German is not up to the task. I read it though. Erstmal, bitte entschuldigen Sie mir dass ich Englisch schreibe. Meine Deutsch sind nich gut genug. Ich kann es lesen aber schreiben ist in dieser fall schwierig.
- This is a Swedish, Danish and Norwegian word used about Norwegians and may be written norbagge, nordbagge, norbage, norrbagge, also see below. It is also used about people from Bohuslän (previously Norwegian territory) by the inhabitants from surrounding areas.[[1]].
- The word is also a Danish name for fjordhest, see for instance w:da:Nordbagge, and norrbagge is likewise a Swedish name for fjordhest [[2]]. It is also a name in Nynorsk for tordivel, see [[3]][[4]][[5]]
- The first known usage of Norbagge is in the name of w:da:Svend Nordmand (written Svend, Sven or Svein and Nordbagge, Nordbage, Norrbagge) who was made bishop in Roskilde in 1076, sources [[6]] [[7]]. [[8]]
- The first time bagge is used in Sweden about Norwegians is dated 1257 in w:no:Håkon Håkonssons saga when Birger Jarl told his men not to call Norwegians for bagge, [[9]] or it is dated 1255 when Birger Jarl threatened his men with a death sentence if they called the Norwegians bagga during Håkon Håkonsson's visit [[10]].
- You can find the etymology of bagge and nordbagge discussed in [[11]][[12]][[13]][[14]][[15]][[16]] [[17]][[18]][[19]][[20]][[21]]
- Examples of usage: several old examples and probably not derogatory here [[22]], 1637 a Norwegian calling himself Nordbagge [[23]], Norwegian calling Norwegians nordbaggar [[24]], Norwegian calling Norwegians nordbagger [[25]], dictionary aimed at all good Norwegians (nordbagger) 1646 [[26]], as klengenavn (not necessarily derogatory) [[27]][[28]], as a term for Norwegians [[29]], also more jokingly [[30]]
- You need to loose the Schimpfwort bit. This needs complete rewriting using above sources. This is not necessarily derogatory.
- Fjeldabe has nothing to do with nordbagge/norrbagge and is also not necessarily a derogatory word [[31]].
- You need to loose Egil Hegge: Norrbagge. Artikel im Aftonbladet (correct name is Per Egil Hegge and the newspaper is Aftenposten not Aftonbladet. Hegge does not cite any sources and he is contradicted by saob.se [[32]] [[33]]
- You also need to loose the sections Andere Schimpfwörter für Norweger and Retourkutschen: Norwegische Schimpfwörter für Schweden since they have nothing to do with either bagge or nordbagge. The sections reads as speculation and have no reliable sources about Schimpfwörter either in Norwegian, Swedish or Danish.
- You need to reread [[34]]. You will find that you have not quoted it correctly and that reliable sources given above contradicts it.
- You will from the above find that the word bagge stems from Old Norse baggi which means either a bag, pouch etc or a thick and clumsy man, se ISBN 9788252134933. You will also find that a lot of reliable sources is of the opionion that the English word bag stems from bagge/baggi. This is however according to Oxford English Dictionary no longer certain. There is however no doubt that the word bagge/baggi does mean a pouch and has later on been used about the pouch any ram carries between his hind legs containing his equivalent to what is also called w:en:Rocky Mountain oysters. This pouch can have a lot of names and sometimes is used for the animal itself. There is however no reason to connect this later usage of the word to the word norrbagge/nordbagge.
- I am sorry this is very negative, but in light of reliable sources this article needs a lot of work. It is wrong on too many counts, quotes unreliable sources and other sources are misunderstood. First of all please read the sources I have given above. You can also search the netsite nb.no which belongs to Nasjonalbiblioteket and contains Norwegian books, journals and newspapers more than 200 years back.-- ツ^ツ Dyveldi  ☯  12:06, 27. Jun. 2020 (CEST)

It will probably be hard to find someone who can correct it. People outside of Norway cannot access most of the books on nb.no. And it is a lot of work. The question is anyway: Is this article even relevant? I somehow doubt it. Being listed in a dictionary does not make a word relevant. We would need sources citing Nordbagge is/was a quite common word and used in culture (films, books and so on). For example Piefke cites some reasons as to why it is relevant. A sign for Nordbagge not being that common is that there is no Swedish/Norwegian article. Did you find any sources that show that the word is relevant? If it is not relevant the article should be deleted. If it is relevant though dragging it into the QS (Qualitätssicherung) is maybe the way to go. But as I stated it is not clear if someone will be able to correct it. If not: Deleting might again be the way out of that because one could argue that although the word is relevant the article does not show that. --CaroFraTyskland (Diskussion) 19:57, 29. Jun. 2020 (CEST)

samma lesen wir denselben Artikel? We would need sources citing Nordbagge is/was a quite common word and used in culture (films, books and so on). - den Part mit Zu den Koryphäen, die sich seither nicht scheuten, diesen Kraftausdruck zu gebrauchen, zählen ausweislich Svenska Akademiens ordbok unter anderem Axel Oxenstierna, Carl von Linné und Selma Lagerlöf hast du schon auch gelesen? Weißt du, wer Oxenstierna, Linne und Lagerlöf sind? Hast du die Artikel zum Eishockey gelesen? A sign for Nordbagge not being that common is that there is no Swedish/Norwegian article. - siehe sv:Norrmän#Norrbagge. Jesus Christ on a Cracker. --2A01:C22:AC53:1600:D315:F85C:53B7:13D1 00:02, 7. Jul. 2020 (CEST)

Bitte etwas den Ton beruhigen, es gilt das allgemeine Wikigebot, freundlich zu bleiben. Ich habe meine Aussagen geschrieben, ohne zu wissen, ob seine Ausführungen stimmen, weil ich auf den Großteil der Quellen keinen Zugriff habe. Was die Sache mit dem Schimpfwort angeht habe ich mich gewundert, weil das ja belegt war, aber ich konnte ja nicht ausschließen, dass es brauchbare Quellen gibt, wo etwas anderes steht. Ok, Oxenstierna sollte wohl für die Relevanz reichen, auch weil das schon ewig zurück ist und ja später noch belegt ist, dass der Begriff heute noch in Gebrauch ist. Da bitte ich um Verzeihung, dass ich diesen Punkt übersehen habe, aber irgendwann habe ich auch etwas die Übersicht verloren. Auch der oben aufgeführte NRK-Artikel bezeugt die Relevanz und könnte in den Artikel eingebaut werden, um es weiter zu belegen. Aber: Steht hier nicht, dass Linné und Lagerlöf den Begriff Norrbagge in Bezug auf das Pferd verwendet hat? Dass der Begriff eine Bezeichnung für ein Pferd ist, sollte übrigens auch rein. Auch so bisschen vom Aufbau ist der Artikel etwas komisch, so wäre es z. B. wohl angebracht, dass mit dem Roskilde-Menschen an den Anfang zu stellen und dann zu schreiben, dass die Schmähung erst später auftaucht. Gleiche Belege zusammenfassen, den Aftenposten-Beleg überarbeiten (den kann ich nicht mal öffnen, da stimmt irgendwas nicht). Auch sind Stellen wie Der Norweger neigte seinerseits bis vor nicht allzu langer Zeit dazu, gegenüber seinen Nachbarn einen hochachtungsvollen, wenn nicht sogar demütigen Ton anzuschlagen etwas zu unwissenschaftlich (ich finde nicht ganz das richtige Wort) formuliert. Allgemein ist der Absatz etwas im falschen Artikel, weil er so jetzt ja schon fast "Ethnopaulismen in Skandinavien" behandelt. Einschätzung meinerseits: Löschen nein, Überarbeiten ja. --CaroFraTyskland (Diskussion) 12:56, 7. Jul. 2020 (CEST)

Yes, you would have to have access to the books, newspapers and journals scanned by the Norwegian national library (nb.no). Which means either visiting the library or having electronic access through a Norwegian no:fødselsnummer. Yes, it will be a lot of work. Just finding and reading the sources will take a lot of time. I would be able to provide quotes, but I am not certain of relevance. When I search nb.no with - norrbagge* OR nordbagge* OR nordbage* OR norbage* - I find the word in one or other spelling in 887 Norwegian books, 177 journals and 2237 newspapers though (a few will be OCR mistakes, but most of this is genuine). I do not know how common the word is in Swedish or Danish (apart from being a Danish name for a horse). I would not attempt an article in Norwegian as I think it quite quickly would be suggested moved to Wiktionary due to articles about words as words normally not being relevant. I do not know about relevance in Swedish WP. I cannot judge relevans in German WP. It should be included in Norweger possibly redirected there, but Norweger#Ethnophaulismen really needs rewriting as well as en:Norwegians#Other_terms_used and commented in en:Talk:Norwegians#Other_terms (with yet another theory, one i have not found sources for). I would be able to write in English WP, but having looked at the sources this will be difficult. It could quite quickly end up being orignal research and an interpretation of what different dictionaries say. Some sources will be reliable, some not, but even the reliable sources does not entirely agree with each other. I would dearly have loved to have found an expert on etymology write a proper research article evaluating sources, meaning and development of this word. If the Piefke article is relevant I think it would be possible to make an article like that, but it would probably be shorter. See also Wikipedia:Redaktion_Nordische_Länder#Lemma_Norrbagge. Is this article relevant on German WP? -- ツ^ツ Dyveldi  ☯  19:17, 2. Jul. 2020 (CEST)

Hi, author here. While I appreciate fair criticism I do have to say that yours is far from fair, and I have a strong feeling that you are not really an expert when it comes to etymology, and not exactly fit to evaluate the relevenat sources, putting it mildly? And could it be that not only your written German, but also your reading comprehension isn't really up to the task?

• You ask us politely to read the "reliable sources" you found, the first of which is funnily enough the Svenska Akademiens Ordbok. Now that is the very first reference I gave, isn't it? The first and the second, in fact: s.vv. norrbagge and bagge. Are we even reading the same article?
• And the SAOB, which you ask me to consider, defines the norrbagge as a nedsättande benämning på norrman, that is to say, a derogatory name for a Norwegian, does it not?
• So exactly why would you want me or us to loose the "Schimpfwort" bit? Norrbaggar er sveriges eldst kjende skjellsord sez Dick Harrison, professor ved universitetet i Lund.
  • BTW: lose ≠ loose. You may want to brush up your English.
• The same goes for fjeldabe - if that is not a derogatory word, why does Den Danske Ordbog, which I referred to, but which is apparently not authoritative enough for your taste, mark the word as spøgende, nedsættende? Do tell me.
• And please do tell me why Den Danske Ordbog and the Store Norske Leksikon are not reliable sources? Do tell, prithee.
• As for Fjeldabe has nothing to do with nordbagge/norrbagge - I beg your pardon? Of course it has: both words are used as derogatory slurs directed at Norwegians. I'd be interested to see the mental gymnastics involved in denying this. Would you care to elucidate your train of thought?
• As for The first known usage of Norbagge is in the name of Svend Nordmand (written Svend, Sven or Svein and Nordbagge, Nordbage, Norrbagge) who was made bishop in Roskilde in 1076 etc. - funny that you would mention that, because it's right there in the article you apparently didn't even bother to read.
• You need to loose Egil Hegge... Hegge does not cite any sources and he is contradicted by saob.se You see, the whole point of bringing this/his hypothesis up is that it is an alternative hypothesis to the one presented in the SAOB, so of course he will be contradicted by the SAOB, that is the point, that should be self-evident, eh? D'oh.
• You will also find that a lot of reliable sources is of the opionion that the English word bag stems from bagge/baggi. This is however according to Oxford English Dictionary no longer certain - and the etymology of English bag is relevant here because...? Tell me.
• There is however no doubt that the word bagge/baggi does mean a pouch and has later on been used about the pouch any ram carries between his hind legs. Yes, the article says as much. So your point is...?
• There is however no reason to connect this later usage of the word to the word norrbagge/nordbagge - in fact there are quite a few good reasons, to do with the fact that this is, whether you like it or not, the leading hypothesis on the origin of this slur, and that it is set forth by several of the sources I cited, among them the older Svensk etymologisk ordbok and the more recent book by Dick Harrison, who is, as you probably don't know, Professor of History at Lund University, whose main interest are the European and in particular the Nordic Middle Ages. He even explained this hypothesis in detail in a NRK broadcast devoted to this topic. So would you please deign to expound why exactly there is no reason to consider this? Oh, do tell!

I could go on, but your criticism is quite obviously not in good faith. --2A01:C22:AC53:1600:D315:F85C:53B7:13D1 23:36, 6. Jul. 2020 (CEST)