Diskussion:Àngel Guimerà

Name

Hallo. Àngel Gimerà war nicht seine zeitgenössische Namen. In diesem Buch von 1896 er hat wie «Ángel Gimerá» unterzeichnet, auch wie hier (1890). Und er hat auch wie «Angel Gimerá» (1890) unterzeichnet, auch hier (1896), hier (1903), hier (1905) und hier (1906). Und auch wie «Ángel Gimera» (1890). Also, ich bit nicht ganz sicher über der "correct name", der Yeza hat gesprochen. Àngel Gimerà i Jorge ist die moderne katalanische Form, aber das ist nicht seine wirkliche und historische Name.

Und wir haben mehr Quellen, wie der Biblioteca Nacional de España (Ángel Gimerá y Jorge), Library of Congress (Angel Guimerá), Bibliotheque nationale de France (Ángel Gimerá und der National Library of Australia Angel Gimerá, die haben andere Formen von ihre Name.

Es gibt ein Theater in Santa Cruz de Tenerife, «Teatro Guimerá» (und nicht «Guimerà»).

Manuchansu (Diskussion) 15:19, 25. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

Hallo Manichansu, Deine Recherche ist sehr lobenswert, allerdings nicht zielführend und relevant für die hier diskutierte Fragestellung. Bei einem Autor, der seit seiner Kindheit in Katalonien gelebt und sein ganzes Leben dort gearbeitet arbeitet hat und der zudem als einer der wichtigsten Vertreter der katalanischen Literatur (Stichwort Renaixença) gilt, muss dass Lemma natürlich den gebräuchlichen katalanischen Namen wiedergeben. Die Standard-Referenz für Artikel aus diesem Themenbereich ist dabei die Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana – siehe Eintrag Àngel Guimerá i Jorge in der Online-Version. Im Projekt Katalonien hat sich die übliche Kurzform katalanischer Namen, also Àngel Guimerà, als sinnvoller Standard für das Lemma durchgesetzt. Der vollständige Name, die spanische (kastilische) Schreibweise, sowie Varianten und Küstlernamen müssen dann natürlich vollständig im entsprechenden Einleitungssatz, in den Personendaten und gegebenenfalls als Weiterleitungen aufgeführt werden. Der Eigenname des Theaters im spanischsprachigen Santa Cruz de Tenerife bleibt davon natürlich unberührt. Mit besten Grüßen --Gepardenforellenfischer ^[...] 14:54, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

Hi, @Manuchansu:, hi @Gepardenforellenfischer:. Excuse me for the meddling. Gran Enciclopedia Catalana is a shitty source. Every guy born in contemporary Catalonia is named there "ContemporaryCatalanName + Surname + i + SecondSurname" no matter what his true name was. That's the seriousness of that source.

It indicates how the Catalanists would wanna name these authors today (Stichwort fer país) or how modern Catalan ortography would apply to them today. By any means it's a sign of how the people were named in his day (I think that's not a negligible criterion, because, at least in Spanish, names should not be translated, unlike toponyms. There are exceptions, of course, but they usually go back to the Middle Ages or at the very very least to the early Frühe Neuzeit).

• If de.wikipedia wants to use "Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana" (or, even worse, ca.wikipedia (!)) as a source of how these men were truly named, they used or (...), it's not useful for that, bad for you, but I could not care less.
• If de.wikipedia wants to use "Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana" (or, even worse, ca.wikipedia) (!)) as a source of how Catalanists prefer to cite these guys or how in contemporary Catalan language these names should be spelled, and that's notable for de.wikipedia, lucky you, it's useful for that.
• If de.wikipedia wants to use main name in DNB as a criterion for what's the common/Standard use in Deutsch, use that criterion.
• If de.wikipedia wants to use NGram Viewer applied to the German corpus as a criterion for article naming, use that criterion.

The fact is this guy was named "Ángel Guimerá" or "Angel Guimerá" both in Catalan and Spanish while he lived. He published under that name (in Catalan, during the Renaixença). He didn't use "à". No one referred him that way, not even in La Renaixensa (organ of fin-de-siécle Catalan nationalism). You would not find a single work, while this guy lived, published under "Àngel Guimerà". His signature displayed "Guimerá" (and he was, in fact, a very very Catalanist guy). His tomb displays "Angel Guimerá" (yeah, in Catalonia too). Even less with the "i" (Àngel Guimerà i Jorge). Do you know why? Because that's a modern form. Anachronic. In 19th century it didn't exist "i" in Catalan language as a conjunction. I'm not very active here and I don't wanna be taken as a single purpose account or a puppet of Manuchansu, just wanted to clarify few things. Cheers und besten Grüßen. Bye. Strakhov (Diskussion) 16:20, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

Allerdings, das ist die Fragge. Ich stimme mit Strakhov überein. Gepardenforellenfischerarm, ich finde die deine Argumentation ist unvermögend, und noch schlimmer, parteiisch und Sektierer. Ca:wiki auf diese Frage von Namen ist näher an dem Ansatz der NSDAP, so...Glückwünsche für de:wiki, die hat diese Argumentation von ca:wiki als etwas gültig etwas akzeptiert. Ich habe nichts hinzuzufügen, ihr habt gewonnen. Bye. Manuchansu (Diskussion) 16:32, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

@Strakhov: Thank you for your informative and friendly input (which cannot be said about everyone discussing here). Of course, there is the difficulty that the Castilian versions were and sometimes still are used in Catalonia and by Catalans. As far as I know the Catalan spelling only became standardized and normalized in the first half of the 20th century by Pompeu Fabra. The German WP, as far as I can tell, does usually try to stick to the namespellings of the maternal language of the person, see, e. g., Ramon Llull and not Raimundus Lullus or Raimundo Lulio. Thus, I do not understand your argument (and why you name the Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana „shitty“). @Manuchansu: Ich bitte dich ein letztes Mal, auf diese persönlichen Angriffe, Herabwürdigungen und diffamierenden Nazi-Vergleiche zu verzichten. Ich nehme „ihr habt gewonnen. Bye“ ernst und werde deine Verschiebungen rückgängig machen, sollte keine Widerrede kommen. --Andropov (Diskussion) 17:37, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

As I told you, there are exceptions, but they usually go back to the Middle Ages or at the very very least to the early Frühe Neuzeit. Catalan was not invented by Pompeyo, later Pompeu, Fabra in 1912. Catalan existed before that. Gran Enciclopedia Catalana aka GEC is a shitty source because is a shitty source. It's a crappy enciclopedia with serious problems of NPOV and... surprise It does not cite sources. The name they select there it's not a proof of anything but of how these names would render in Modern Catalan. As I told you, if that's relevant enough for you, take it. If not... search something valuable, which weights the use in German language (GEC & ca.wiki do not do that). Whatever title you select, saying in the introduction Àngel Guimerà i Jorge, auf Spanisch Ángel Guimerá y Jorge is falsch, because his name was "Á(A)ngel Guimerá" both Castilian and Catalan (I think he preferred Angel without the "'", but that's a wild guess). By the way, the "maternal language" of this guy was probably Castilian but IMHO that's not meaningful. The fact is this guy published in Catalan (yeah, Catalan) dozens of works and he never used "Àngel Guimerà i Jorge", a posthumous form created after the Pompeu-Fabra-we-want-to-be-a-little-bit-more-different-than-you reform. Anyway, please don't ping me, because, believe me, I do not give a f(...) on this matter in de.wiki. I have enough with es.wikipedia. Strakhov (Diskussion) 17:57, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

Alright, no ping then. I take back what I said about friendliness, my mistake. If you choose not to back up your claim of „shittiness“, then that is up to you, of course, but it does not make your argument look convincing. I have not said anything about inventing Catalan, but about standardisation, but as you say: you do not give a f(...), so let us leave it at that and continue the way the German WP has chosen to do: Using the modern Catalan standard spelling of names for Catalan people. --Andropov (Diskussion) 18:08, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

I let Vorlage:Sic you do whatever you want, as I told you, in the very first post (If de.wikipedia wants to use "Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana" (or, even worse, ca.wikipedia) (!)) as a source [....] these names should be spelled, and that's notable for de.wikipedia, lucky you, it's useful for that.), friendly pal. How policital correctness is overrated here, you say "f(...)" and oh oh oh you aren't friendly. We are not here to make friends, but to write an encyclopedia, remember that. My claim of "shittiness" is backed with the article there, which, as I told you, does not cite sources backing anything (it does not even have an author: "Col·laboració: XFa") and with the Aneto Peak located in "Ribagorça, Franja de Ponent". Cheers. Strakhov (Diskussion) 18:36, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)

By the way, where are the sources claiming GEC is a standard in German Language? Since many years ago it's an online encyclopedia where even you can contribute. Written in Catalan, not Deutsch, though. It would be interesting knowing what does your "Catalan people" means (does it include people feeling themselves Catalans?, every guy born in Catalonia? fathered by a "Catalan"? Carlos Ruiz Zafón is not Catalan? Better "Carles Ruiz i Zafón"? are you aware that nowadays in Catalonia both Castilian and Catalan are official and spoken? but this would probably enter into the ethnic territory, so let stop it. I just suggest you a better reference work than GEC or ca.wiki for people naming. You choose not following my advice, as I told you: up to you. Strakhov (Diskussion) 18:57, 26. Jul. 2017 (CEST)